Why do Nice Guys Finish Last?

6 06 2012

This feels like such a cliche question to which everyone figured out the answer years ago, but it’s not. Dudes are still asking this as I type. Alex on Yahoo Answers said:

Women always talk about how they want a guy to be nice to them, but whenever i try this I get friendzoned. I’m seriously thinking that being a total d-bag towards women is the way to get them, because a lot of my friends treat women like crap, but do well with them. I always respect and try to understand women, and they tell me that I’m so sweet and cute. THEN they tell me about this guy they like who I know for a fact is a total d-bag. BAM immediate friendzone!! I’m not the best looking, but I’m definitely not totally ugly, and I’m pretty short for my age. Unless someone convinces me otherwise, I’m just gonna start being a jerk to women, because I know being nice to them will just make me “a sweet guy”. Will it ever change as I get older? I’m in high school. Do women even care about personality, because I’m starting to think they’re even shallower than we are. help me!!!

Okay, I’ll help you. First, you’re in high school and you’re presumably talking about girls who are also in high school, yet you call them “women.” Stop this! It’s weird and indicates that you deliberately misinterpret the behavior of these strange creatures. Women do not generally whine about wanting guys to be nice to them. This is something girls do.

If there’s one thing you need to know about girls it’s that they’re full of shit. Girls don’t talk to inform or convey ideas. They talk to handle and express their emotions. Their words are not to be taken seriously or literally. When she says she wants a guy to be nice, she’s expressing frustration with a guy not being nice, and if she weren’t into this guy, she wouldn’t be frustrated about it.

Girls are generally as clueless as you are about social dynamics and what they’re actually attracted to. Female humans are attracted to males with social status. Strength, power, wealth, popularity, dressing like a clown, and not giving a shit are things that convey this status. High school girls don’t understand this. They may actually want a guy who is nice without realizing that a nice guy does nothing for them. If there’s a difference between girls and women, it’s that women have a firmer grasp on who does and who doesn’t make them moist and why, and they’re also more apt to laugh at the sillier traits that work so well on younger chicks.

When a girl says you’re sweet or cute (to your face), she’s expressing the emotion she feels when she sees basket of kittens, except that you’re not actually that cute. She feels comfortable using words like this at you because they’re superficially good words. It sounds like a compliment, but, as you seem to realize, she’s actually expressing that she couldn’t even imagine liking you like that. The best course of action when you hear such words is to protest loudly and prove such accusations wrong. A completely inappropriate ass-slap during a heart-felt hug would be one way to do this. Pulling your dick out is probably ill-advised, but at least you don’t have to worry about going to real jail if you’re under 18.

Alex, things will change. Girls get a bit more sensible as they get older and become women, but this is not something you should wait or plan for. A 35 year-old woman can be shockingly childish. The big thing that will change is you. Even if you avoid actively bettering yourself with the ladyfolk, you’ll still manage to get laid by accident here and there and that will change your outlook enough to do okay.


30 10 2010

-You have great eyes.
-Thanks! Everyone says that!
-Probably because it’s true. They stand out, you know.
-Actually they’re quite awful and everyone says they’re nice because lies make the best compliments
-REALLY!?! (with a face that says ,”Oh no, are you serious?”)
-No, they’re actually fantastic.

I don’t know that lies are actually the best compliments, but that sounds about right, doesn’t it? Have you ever heard a girl say to another, “Oh my God! I love your hair!” and thought, “Really? There’s no way her hair looks better now than it did before she paid someone lunatic to butcher it like that.” These compliments come out automatically. The first girl doesn’t think about what she should say, she just knows that the other girl “needs” to feel good about the change she made, and the worse the change the greater the need. The second girl might understand that this is just a lie to make her feel good, but she doesn’t care because it still works. The intent is to make her feel good (positive) and not to deceive (negative). This is very alien to me and probably most males.

It’s a bit different when the lie-compliment comes from a heterosexual male because the intent is suspect, but I’ve witnessed success with this. However, I couldn’t lie about shit like this to save my life. I wander through life making factual statements that are either interpreted as compliments, insults, or confusion. This might not be the most effective game, but it’s a happy way to experience life, and it can work quite well if you handle the responses well, as above.

Hating on the pick-up artist community

2 09 2009

I don’t exactly consider myself a member of this community, but I’ve watched it for a while and learned a few things. The modern community was born on the internet. I wasn’t there, and I don’t know who really started it, but I believe it began on a usenet newsgroup. Usenet, since nobody seems know this, is an older internet protocol for message boards with all the technical sophistication of e-mail. I’ve read some of the old posts that are archived at fastseduction.com, and they seemed to consist guys trying different things to improve their success with women and sharing the results. A lot of learning took place. Some of the guys that are making lots of money on seminars and “bootcamps” today started there.

I think the seriousness with which some guys take this stuff and the complexity of their jargon is a bit silly, and it’s crazy that people spend hundreds and even thousands of dollars on books, DVD’s, seminars, and one-on-one training. However, I understand how frustrating and devastating the world can be for a man who has little to no success with women, and I know that some dudes have a bit more disposable income than I do. I know someone who once spent over a grand on a pre-internet “computer dating service” and had very limited success. George Sodini recently went on a homicidal rampage where he targeted only women after 19 years without sex. I’ve seen some pretty serious frustration in people I know. Sexless life for a man with hormones is basically a fate worse than death, so I suppose I can understand why some dudes might shell out a few bucks to remedy the situation. Still, I think it’s pretty nuts when tons of good information is available on the web for free.

The first problem with the community is that it exists outside the paradigm of equality of the sexes. The claims of feminism are rejected, even laughed at. It doesn’t say that men are better than women, but it does say, very loudly, that we are different, a lot different. This is important because it’s something that modern males don’t really seem to understand. Sure, they may have noticed that girls cry more and like the color pink more than them, but many of the most important differences are not nearly as apparent. Often, a guy with unsatisfactory success with women will blame his looks, foolishly thinking that looks are as important to women as they are to men. Without evidence to the contrary, a guy automatically assumes that the female mind works like his own. Young men are not learning this from their parents or teachers, nor do most of them learn it on their own, so the community serves a noble purpose. We are different and for acknowledging that, the community is branded as sexist.

The other problem is that it’s all about manipulating the pants off of girls through dishonest trickery. It really isn’t. Okay, there are “tricks” and there are certain bullshit games that can be played, but this is not a necessary component. A man can have  game without lying or resorting to any sort of dirty tricks. It’s not necessarily about getting laid right now either. It’s about being attractive to women. I’ve never actually seen VH1’s pick-up artist, but I have seen a trailer. If you’ve seen the losers on that show, you should understand what they’re looking for.

A little while ago, in a thread called “How to hit on girls” I posted a hidden camera video of a PUA meeting a girl on the sidewalk during the day. They were making out within 10 minutes. This sparked some hostility toward me and the PUA community.

geek_grrl said:

The PUA thing is all about manipulating very young women with low self-esteem or boulders rolling around in their skulls into sex. They advise the “neg,” a backhanded compliment (insult) to “take her off her pedestal.” And not-so-subtle techniques like touching a woman’s arm, if she withdraws, ignore her. If she responds positively, give her more attention. Seriously, all that’s missing is snausages and a whistle.

No. It’s not about young women. It’s about attractive women, which often happen to be rather young but not necessarily. Low self-esteem is not required at all. Game works on all women. Sure, there are a lot of tricks and things that will work better on the younger ones, but the basic core is universal. The infamous neg is how a guy can get a girl to question her relative value. The goal is to bring her down to his  level, so it’s really only useful on those who see themselves as being above the crowd of guys hit on them. It’s not about making her feel bad, and if he does that, he did it wrong.

And PUA’s basic teaching boils down to treating women as if they’re magical beasts guarding the kingdom of pussy. Defeat the beast, get the pussy.

Actually, this is the way guys naturally see things. PUA’s actually try to deprogram this thinking.

PUA’s “quality women” are young (early twenties), heart-achingly beautiful (they call them a 9+), have self-esteem issues, and are devastatingly naive. It’s a very specific group of women.

I see. For eons, men and boys have rated girls on the 1-10 scale. The most impressive thing a PUA can do in front of a young beta student is approach a 9 or 10 and have success. Looks are the primary thing that attract males to females, but I would not judge someone as a “quality woman” based only on looks. I can’t speak with authority on how that term is used within the community, but quality implies relationship material, which requires a lot more than looks.

Now by all means, if that is what you want, go forth and get it. I bear you no ill will, and don’t think you’re a jerk for knowing the sort of woman you want and going for it.

What bugs me about this is that you just say things like “good with women” as if we’re all the same exact thing, and not really people, but magical creatures who have to be unlocked with a magical key. PUA works with some women. It doesn’t work with all women. Same goes for that awful BS “The Rules” which is all about manipulating men (they refer to dating profiles as their “lobster traps” and completely dehumanize men in the same way. Um, “yay equality?”) It only works on a specific type of man, not all. The Rules treats men as magical beasts guarding the kingdom of the Amex platinum card.

One of the first things I understand about human females is how different they are from one another. However, the core, pick-up artistry is universal. If you

Rules Girls and PUA guys should get together and make lots of manipulative, sexist children. That would be awesome.

If recognizing the differences between the sexes is sexist, that would, in fact, be awesome. We should all be a bit more sexist.

Be honest, PUA stands for Pick Up Artist. It’s not Long-term Relationship Artist. Women are people, just as diverse in what they want and who they are as men.

Women are more diverse than men in almost every area. The art is useful and even necessary for relationships, particularly with American women. A man needs to be a certain way to get a girl and he needs to keep being that way to keep her. I don’t like that things are this way, but they are.

I just wish you’d stop referring to your “quality women” as women in general. That’s the part that makes you sound like jerks for painting us all with the same brush.

Who me? When I refer to women in general, I’m talking about women in general.

I’ll have more on this topic later.

Hi Hope

24 07 2009

The following is a response to A message to young women by Hope. She posted a comment on Roissy’s blog, and I don’t think she really gets it. The thing I noticed about her post is that she gives a bunch of advice, commands really, to young women without any explanation as to why they should listen, let alone do as she says. I get the feeling that Hope wants girls to learn the lessons that she had to learn the hard way, but that could be a misread.

Now, I like to advise young men to avoid the military and not to get married. However, there is absolutely no talking a guy out of either of these things if he’s already made up his mind. The best I can do is scare the crap out of him. Reason will not work. Hell, that’s another piece of advice I like to give everyone – it is very difficult to change someone’s mind with reason. Sure, you can technically win a debate and perhaps persuade a third party, but almost all modern humans are immune to logic when it contradicts whatever the hell they feel like believing. Hope doesn’t even try that. She just tells people what to do. I don’t get that.

She’s telling girls to stay away from men who “play the field.”

Men will always find beautiful women attractive. But…

Is this really so regrettable? Men are attracted to attractive women and women are attracted to attractive men. How terrible is this? It seems to have served the species well once upon a time. Of course, this is unfortunate for unattractive people, but it is not a bad for women in general or men in general.

…upstanding men will take care of their women and family, and will not jeopardize their monogamous relationships for a quick fling. The trick is distinguishing between the honorable, loving and committed kind of men from the kind that only see women as sex objects.

There’s a false dilema here. It is quite possible to be upstanding and honorable without being monogamous or committed to anyone in particular. I don’t know exactly what it means to see women only as sex objects. My image of someone who sees women that way is a guy who fantasizes about women when he pleasures himself, but doesn’t seem to know how to interact with them in real life or that, like us, they’re people too. The player is less preoccupied with sex and may well enjoy interaction with the fairer sex for it’s own sake rather than as a means to an end, though not necessarily. Some, may well be sex addicts with little interest in the person they’re fucking, but I think many are more addicted to women themselves than anything else. I really take issue with the way she seperates men into the committed and the players, as if all single dudes are “playing the field”, like there something wrong with a guy who’s not in a serious relationship, never mind that the guy could have been totally committed to a woman who got bored with him and left him.

Some men base their morality on self-interest and believe that women are inherently inferior to men. They justify their views on women not with reason but with feelings sprung from their groins. Such men are opportunists. They prey on women who believe they have no personal worth outside of their physical appearance, and who will meekly submit to any man showing a bit of dominance and status.

Do not fall for them. Do not believe their lies.

Apparently, this is her description of a player. Pick-up, it seems, is necessarily some sort of immoral trickery, and to practice it is to see women as inferior. Certainly, there are ethically objectionable methods of picking up women, but the whole game is not automatically evil. God is not so cruel. At the most superficial level, pick-up is about lines, tricks, and gimmicks. Mainly it’s the skill of being attractive to women. At the deepest level, it’s almost a self-help thing – becoming a better version of yourself. The tricks are seen as a crutch.

Stay away from men who refuse to acknowledge that women have inherent worth outside of sex, who cannot see the inner beauty that exist within the tender, sweet, intelligent women who possess a great deal of personal depth.

Dear ladies, if a man only values you for sex, he’s clearly not a keeper. However, if all men only value you for sex, you’re not a keeper. Women are just as capable of being worthless as men, although the consequences are less severe. I sense some hostility toward the hot girls, as it apparently a virtue to be attracted to women who have all the positive traits that aren’t physical beauty.

She goes on, telling girls not to be slutty…

Ignore men who are so focused on outward appearances and who insist on all women putting out all the time. They mistake the world as a giant “meet them, use them and dump them” club.

Some men might want emotionless sex, but many women do not — many men do not either! Is sex important? Absolutely. But don’t settle for sex with men who just want to use you for your body.

Why not? I’m not arguing that girls ought to be sluts, but I really want to know why she thinks they shouldn’t.  What are the consequences?

She goes on telling girls to exercise and to learn how to cook clean, to not dress slutty, and to look for men who are not slutty and superficial.  Great! Wifey stuff!